This blog has been created by the city of Excelsior and the Parking Task Force to inform residents of parking issues in downtown Excelsior. This will allow the city and residents to interact with each other at everyone’s convenience!We will post more information about the Parking Task Force and other news regarding parking downtown soon!
Hello Everyone - Here are some comments received from the two open houses regarding parking in Downtown Excelsior.
“Park and ride could provide spaces for evenings and weekends, restaurant use and special events. NSP land could work for this.”
“Do we have parking patrols or ticketing for cars that park beyond what the meter allows or the lot allows? Is this something the community would support?”
“How many dock spaces are there and what is the time frame for parking? (8 is not enough!)”
“I have customers daily that request more dock parking for shopping and dining in Excelsior.”
The City contracts for additional Police patrol in The Commons and on the City Dock. The Park Patrol checks the parking meters, enforces the time limits, and tickets those who exceed the limits. Most of the City's parking meters are adjacent to The Commons.
I have been monitoring this site and thought I may gain some useful updates on the parking strucutre. I have not seen anyhting about the parking structure. Can someone update me?
The comments regarding Lake Forest, Ill. are very interesting and their experience may be helpful to Excelsior. The below ground parking would have the least impact on our Historic immage---I hope someone from the Parking task force contacts Lake Forest, and other Midwest Historic towns such the Historic town in NE Iowa maybe we won't need to reinvent the wheel...they all probably dealt with a parking issue.
Addressing the Parking is a complicated undertaking and many of us on Water/#'s St. are very greatful that we are truely doing so and look forward to a short term plan and a long term plan to address future parking needs. We all want and are working towards keeping Excelsior healthy and vital through all the change that takes place. We encourage the City Council to be firm in their resolve to develope a workable parking plan.
I like the idea of outside advice but do we need to go to Illinois to get it? Unless we have some type of prejudice against talking to towns in our area I would think Wayzata could be a helpful contact. Similar types of people as Excelsior (life time livers who want no change and new people who think it should be freshened up.) Sounds like a cheap resource to start with. Has the parking commision talked to them? I would guess there are a few river towns or other lake towns in our area that could help as well. I lived in Lake Forest for 2 years and visited Galena several times they are very nice towns and could be helpful at some point but there is value in a cheap face to face meeting with some local folks with similar problems to excelsior that I believe is valuable.
It would seem that the suggestions offered regarding talking to other midwest cities are not exclusive considerations. These towns as well as local towns have all had to deal with parking which is a universal problem. The idea to gather information from relevant sources to help develope our parking plan. Find out what has worked and what has been a mistake or what could have been a better approach. we need to learn from others that is a cheap lesson
Does the city really need more parking? The side streets are free to park on and other than major events they do not seem to be filling up. Is this parking issue a waste of city time and money? I know I can walk a block or 2 when I go downtown Minneapolis is that to much to ask of people visiting Excelsior??? I also thought there was a city council member complaining that there was to many parking spaces in Excelsior and from a safety stand point we needed to limit the number of spaces for times such as the 4ht of July. The city went so far as to paint the curbs yellow to show the no parking areas. Where is the city really going with this? What am I missing here?
In the 35 years that we have been in business on Water St. in Excelsior, I have learned that there can be a great deal of variation in how one might drscribe a situation in our city. Take what seems to be an absolute and one will find the discriptions will be poles apart. The absolute in this case is "Parking availability in downtown Excelsior." We need to agree on what the absolute is and only then can we seek a solution. Darel Leipold
Thanks to all who have weighed in. Your comments are important, and will be considered as we continue the planning.
We are looking forward to the November 1st public meeting to share what the task force has learned to date. The meeting is at 7:00 PM in the Council chambers. Please spread the word.
I would like to thank the city council for making this blog and "eDemocracy" available for those of us new to Excelsior. This is a terrific medium for letting newcomers get up to speed on issues quickly, and I encourage you to continue utilizing blogs for discussion and public comment in the future.
I have recently heard about the vision document describing a development plan for Excelsior in the coming years. Is this available somewhere? I see a lot of new devlopment in just one year, and am interested in what the "big picture" is.
On the parking topic: We are just completing our first year living in wonderful Excelsior, after spending the last ten in the Grand & Victoria area of St. Paul. Parking was becoming a major issue for the stores in the Victoria crossing area, and after much debate, a 3-story structure was built to replace a chronically full surface lot. A facade was built on the structure to make it blend in with the older brick building on the other three corners. I don't know the final cost, but the final structure is aesthetically pleasing, and provided the necessary space - so I know that a "tasteful" solution is possible.
From what I can see, Excelsior has some very specific needs regarding parking:
- Charter boat operations probably account for a significant part of the summer peak parking volume - A new library will draw more daytime traffic - Jake O'Connor's will draw more evening traffic - Desire to keep parking traffic away from trails, commons, and "lower" Water street.
Steve Finch posted a great explanation of some of the issues facing the council - and this one struck me as particularly relevant:
It does have a cost - that cost has been borne by the general City taxes for the last many years. Significant changes in the tax structure facing Excelsior have severely strained that option. Two of the major ones were: 1. The state changed the relative taxes paid by business, multi family dwellings, and single family dwellings. That means that the business community and multi family complexes in Excelsior are paying a considerable smaller portion of the Excelsior taxes than they have historically paid.
If parking is truly becoming/projected to be an issue in the near term, what can be done to "set the scales back"? Surely the businesses and multi-family dwellings using the parking should be the primary means of supporting any needed expansion.
I do not see why there is a need for this parking structure. The side streets are not being used at all. I do not believe in the theory "If you build it they will come!" Let's see if they come and then build it once they are here. For now over flow parking should go to the side streets. The city council should start putting money aside for a parking structure now. If at some point in the future we need the parking structure we can dip into the "Parking structure fund" to help finance it. During the 4th of July holliday the town has more people in it than all the stores ,restaraunts, and charter boats combined can hold and we seem to be able to facilitate parking for all of them. What am I still missing here?? Is someone getting a kickback? Is the consultant someones brother? is this Chicago politics????
Well, I woul encourage Excelsior to increase their parking control, their ticket issuing, wheel clamping !!! Pleople should take their push bike and be less dependant of their car. It is proven that even if citizens are usually against such mesure...they all in favour when asked 2 years after measure has been implemented. So here is a link for Excelsior: http://www.streetmanagement.co.uk
WHO SAYS WE HAVE A PARKING PROBLEM?IF YOU MUST WALK TWO OR EVEN THREE BLOCK TO VISIT YOUR DESTINATION DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A PARKING PROBLEM?I HOPE ANY SURVEY OF THE NEED CONSIDERS WHO WILL BE PAYING THE BILL;OUR DOWNTOWN MERCHANTS DON'T NEED MORE COSTS.
I encourage everyone to take a step back from the political campaigning that plagued our little city this past season and littered our streets, our yards, our skies (in some instances on W. Lake Street), and a candidates TRUCK. After digging into "the new parking structure" that was supposedly already agreed to, I found out some pretty interesting tips and ideas. First, there is no parking structure agreed to. The city is simply exploring all of our options in regards to parking here in Excelsior. We do have a parking problem and if you think we don't wait until Jake's opens and you will definitely be convinced. Many speak of side streets and three block walks; guess what, I don't want people parking on my street, in front of my house, and waking me up drunk at 2 in the morning returning from the bar, and running over my cats or your children. Growth in downtown has been progressing, but not at a rate that is desirable to residents - for the plain fact of TAX RELIEF. The more taxes the business district can generate, the lower our residential taxes will be. Many businesses have decided upon other cities BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF PARKING HERE. If you want lower taxes, we need to encourage more businesses to locate in Excelsior and STOP THEM FROM LEAVING. Hopefully with this change in city council we can help re-develop the image we have made for ourselves over the past several years of being unaccomadating and difficult to do business with. We need to promote ourselves and encourage good, sound development of our business district. The naysayers should move somewhere that isn't a desirable place to live and hence they can have lower taxes and be grumpy all the time. That place isn't Excelsior nor do we want it to be.
I live and work in town, so I have chance to see the area during all times throughout the week. Sure, there are times when the lots aren’t full, but there are also a lot of basic businesses that I wish would move here. I for one wouldn't mind a couple more amenities in town (grocery store, drug store, a couple more mid-priced restaurants that aren’t Haskell’s). I don’t know the exact math, but if parking is the only thing preventing this from happening, then I’d say get some more parking. Developers can help pay for it, since they will benefit from it.
To me, the question is not if we should expand our parking, but where?. Seems to me that any parking expansion should benefit the Maynard's / Bayview / Ryan Building area in addition to Water Street. We sometimes act as if Water Street is the only street in town that brings in visitors. There is a lot more to our downtown than Water Street.
Who owns that lot across from Maynards? Would it be possible to do a private / public partnership parking expansion in that area? How about the lots off of 3rd street between Water and Mill that you can see from the walking trail, near the new office building that is going up? There is the point raised by several bloggers about it trying to keep traffic out of residential areas that I tend to agree with. Prime development locations will follow a parking structure. Doesn’t it make sense to have the parking located near spots that we’d like to infill? Who knows what the ugly corridor next to Highway 7 would attract if those spots were walking distance from good parking!
By the way, if the 4th of July parking situation (referred to in one post) becomes the norm, I'm moving!
Where will the "new businesses" be located? Hessberg seemed to have a real hard time dealing with the council when he wanted to put his building up on hwy 7 and his included its own parking. Another devloper wanted to add 5 feet of height to a building and was shot down. The building next to the cleaners was slightly to tall and they had city issues and I have not even mentioned that there really is very limited ground space left around town for development. Where will they build? With the new development going in where pizza hut is are they adding parking there? Maybe they should be forced to add enough to accomadate everyone in town that does not have there own garage plus enoough to facilitate the boats and dumpsters as well as the front end loaders that are parked on the side streets??
Jakes was allowed to open and conduct business by the elected city council with the current parking situation in mind. I think we should relax and see how it affects our parking. To the person that lets the cat roam free at 2 a.m please keep it in your house or when it is out you should be as well. Cats spread disease and by letting them roam they may access kid’s sandboxes and spread that disease. You are obviously worried about kids as you mention you are worried about them being hit be the "drunks at 2 a.m." I have kids but I generally like to have them in bed well before this time of night. Your concern about the drunks should really be directed towards the policing of our town and not to the parking concern. Last I checked you do not own the street you live on but you have the right to use the street and so do others. By calling the street yours you have proven to me that you are thinking about what is in your best interest and not what is in the best interest of the community! What businesses have attempted to come to town but did not because of parking concerns? Where were they going to be located? Is the town going to start developing in a north, south, east, or west direction? I think a little foot traffic through the side streets could help add to property values as well as create a more social enviroment. Are we all anti social?
Until our business district is paying for the majority of the city budget, then I actually do believe that the streets belong to the residents.
I agree that many of these issues are just as much about policing as they are about parking. Good observation by whoever wrote that one. It shouldn't be the end of the world of someone parks on a residential street, but the residents on those streets should also be able to expect peace and quiet at 2am.
When saying the streets belong to the residents do you mean I own the area of street in front of my house or do you mean all residents including people from outside excelsior? I believe that taxes of all citizens from the town plus some money from Hennipin county help pay for our streets. There for the streets should remain open to public parking. If we do not want to have it this way we better go spend some more money on no parking signs. Your peace and quiet issue is still a issue for the police. If the police arrest a few people early on for either public intoxication or for being to loud the word will get out and it will not be a probleem. But the bottom line is the noise concern is a police issue. Maybe the city should study how loud it is at 2 a.m. when Haskells closes.
Excelsiorites have become accustomed to equating traffic and parking with noise and nuisance (be it at the Commons or in the downtown area). This is probably due to the lack of policing during the past few years. This should now improve as our policing improves, and a CSO is brought on.
Looks like Jake's is just about ready to open. When it does, we'll all have a better idea of how severe (or not) the parking situation is.
What is happening to the Pizza Hut building? Is that going to be a renovation / remodel that also competes for the parking spaces? I see that all the businesses are gone.
no - this site is dead just like downtown Excelsior. let it go - let it fade to nothing. this inactive change resistant community needs to let go of the 1950's hardware store, grocery store, and dry cleaners. it just won't happen again. let it go. let something new come in. change it up. excelsior is attractive to people because of the possibilities, but with possibilities come change and you have to allow some change to occur.
can someone delete the spam that the site has been targeted with?
Could someone please publish the formula we are using to monitor the parking situation?? I fear it may be a classic excelsior formula of the small amount of no-change wanting whinners crys stomps there feet and complains until the city caves into to there demands. Or the other Excelsior classic of set a date to decide on something important but instead of voting on that day move the vote up a week so there is no opposition there to argue against it (like the council did to elect the new city planning commissioner)
I love the fact that people are complaining about people walking/parking by thier house at the same time the city is going to improve the sidewalks. Who are we kidding we do not need sidewalks we need barbed wire with big keep out signs at our borders. I sure hope Bush sends troops soon because we are being over run by fellow sububanites walking and parking on our public streets in order to help our local businesses. This really sucks. Please get the signs and wire up before summer. I would hate for our town to improve or grow. this may increase our property value and that in turn would increase our wealth all Bad things. Please help me in my campaign to get all businesses shutdown so my property value decreases.
Are you implying that in order for excelsior to be a growing community with strong property values, we need to be content with our residential streets looking like they do on the 4th of July?
I don't think anyone is complaining about people walking in front of their houses. The potential for it to get excessive, and at what hours of the night it is excessive, is the issue.
It is not an either/or topic. We should be able to have a strong downtown and at the same time keep our neighborhoods quaint and somewhat quiet. That is the whole point of this parking issue.
I think people (this poster included) need to stop posting anonymously and use real names. It would add more credibility to this dialogue and make it more productive.
I think we need to look at the formula being used to monitor the parking in town in order to better understand the goals here. What formula are they using to monitor it? Is it line of sight or is there a real system? Also can we wait until we get through one summer with Jakes before deciding we need to spend $5 million on a parking ramp? I recall living in a town where there was overflow parking that went into the residential section of town and people parked on the PUBLIC STREETS of that town and the interaction was pleasant. I am not sure what types of interactions most of you have with the visitors on the 4th of July but most of mine have been enjoyable. And let's remember the 4th of July only happens once a year even in Excelsior. I understand the goal of not letting the town get over blown to the point you can not drive but does adding a parking lot that will hold an additional 500 cars for 5 million dollars make it all better?
Forget the Viagra, I need a good stock tip. Everybody I know is getting hot tips in their inbox, and now retiring. I'd like to get in on that action, so I can buy a nice piece of Greenwood real estate. Yes, Greenwood. I want the privilege of living in the Excelsior area without all the stupidity of Excelsior politics!
When is that parking ramp going to be built. I remember hearing during the last election that a vote for Nick Ruehl was a vote for a ramp. Well spring is here, construction season is underway, so when does it happen?
There's such a sense of entitlement in Excelsior I can't believe they haven't gated the community already. It would not only save on policing costs, it'd drive property values through the roof, and everyone would be happy.
Excelsior residents shouldn't flatter themselves so much. There ain't much in your little town worth using. The Commons has nice views of the lake, but I've seen water before. A big grassy park ain't that special. You can keep your art festival and 4th of July crap, it ain't worth the trouble to come see. You have a few businesses that are worth patronizing, and I think they pay property taxes to your city, so I'm not getting a free ride when I use your city. Your town is the armpit of the Lake Minnetonka communities, and we love it a whole lot less than you think we do. If you think we all love visiting your crummy little city, you are HIGHLY delusional.
Is there an update on the actual parking work being done in the city (which was the original intent of this blog, I believe).
"Anonymous" and "Deephaven Snob" aside, there are thousands of people who choose to find their way to Excelsior each week, and we need to continue to to of where they are going to park!
Is Excelsior going to attempt to build a parking garage? Fellow anonymous folks: You must have a lot of spare time on your hands to type all the garbage that you have. Why don't you put your fat lazy ass on the couch and focus your attention on eating your cheetos and playing your video games while the rest of us focus on the future of the community you live in. Wheather the parking garage is a good idea or not some people care to hear/read what is being debated so that we can use the gray matter in our heads to decide what we think is best.
How long does it take to type an anonymous comment, 30 seconds....60 seconds at most?
How does that translate into a lot of spare time?
If you spend a lot of your spare time typing insults into a blog, why aren't you on the couch with Cheetos and video games? You sound like one of the people you chastise. A little case of the pot calling the kettle black, clearly.
But what is being debated? What are they planning to do? What studies are they doing? Who will pay for it? It being extra policing and the cost of the structure?
This site is "Downtown Excelsior Parking Blog." Can we please all just get along and have some constructive discussion about parking in Excelsior? There is no need for the excess negative comments directed towards one another. We need some good debate on parking? Any updates on this?
Thanks for attempting to get this blog back on track. Parking this summer appears to be managing, from what I've seen.
Do we know if any of the new building projects, specifically the Pizza Hut building or the 2nd phase of the Promenade, are being held up by parking problems?
Hey great it appears this blog is back on track. HAs anyone been updated on the parking structure? I have been driving around the Excelsior Village at different times both on weekends and week days. The parking does not seem to be to bad at this point. Side streets were used for art on the lake but other than that I think traffic/parking seems to be running pretty smooth.
Hey great it looks like the blog was back on track. Any updates on the parking structure? Anyone have a clue why people that do not have any info, feedback or questions that pertain to the topic "downtown Excelsior Parking" are on this blog? Could someone please give an update on the appropriate topic.
I have an update for you: there's no parking ramp in Excelsior and there's no parking ramp coming any time soon. It will cost a couple million dollars to build one ramp and that money isn't exactly laying around. All the planning and talking won't change the fact it will be a cold day in Excelsior before a ramp is built.
There, there's your update. Go buy some coffee, antiques and other overpriced crap in your shabby downtown. I'll go shop in a real city.
I agree that the parking has not yet been an issue this summer. Days like Art on the Lake and the upcoming 4th of July are the exceptions; of course parking will be difficult on those days. However, on other days, it seems to be generally good. We have a thriving little downtown with some exciting new business. I know alot of people from places like Eden Prairie and Minnetonka who before wouldn't have trekked out here, and now are making regular visits.
Lots of momentum, and the parking so far hasn't been a major problem.
Thanks a ton for the updates! I love the commons! Great beach, fun fireworks, art on the lake and Thursday has music in the park. Can it get any better than this??? To those that call Excelsior a City though I must laugh at you HAHAHAHAH get out and experience the big world, Minneapolis is barely a city. Back off the small quaint little drinking village of Excelsior no one said you ever had to visit the small town so please please please if you do not like it stay out of it the rest of us will survive without you.
What about the Maynards area? It seems like that is where the most severe traffic and parking issues are. There is that big lot across from Maynards - could that be a public / private venture to build a ramp there?
Does anyone fear adding more parking in the maynards area may cause maynards and bayside to get over crowded? Are they close to maximum occupancy on the weekends already? I think any new structure should be setup to focus on main street. I am open to discussion but i think behind the east side of mainstreet looks good.
Good point. It is probably safe to assume that wherever a future parking structure is built, there will be higher demand to renovate and attract commercial tenants for the businesses right around it. That is what happened when they did the ramp at 50th and France.
Makes sense to stick the structure someplace where it is surrounded by commercial properties on all 4 sides. Could really give them a boost.
I hope they never build a ramp in Excelsior because it'll just encourage more riff raff to come to town for the 4th of July. Why do we bother with all that crap, it's not worth the hassle.
I'm sure the 4th of July celebration could warrant a lively thread all its own. Strong feelings on that topic. As for parking, I have a feeling the people are going to come to town on the 4th whether there is a ramp or not.
I thought the 4th went real well. I was in the park all day and the music was fantastic!!! i also thought considering how nice the weather was that there was plenty of parking and even after the fireworks were done the town cleared out pretty fast. So far so good on Parking. With the housing market going down the drain the city really should hold off on spending until we get a better picture on the tax revenue going forward. Does anyone know how long until the city starts lowering our property taxes because of the decreasing value of our homes???
Fourth of July was not as crowded this year, in part, perhaps, because of stories that the fireworks funds were underwhelming. Whether or not people assumed the show would be weak, or canceled, is unknown.
There was also no show listing in the Star Tribune's fireworks list. The show was listed in some online news databases, but not the Strib.
It may have been a combination of those factors that helped keep the turnout low.
Why should homeowners have to pay for 100 percent of the cost to replace them?
Why is that cost not spread around like it would be for parking? You know a lot of people who have no use for additional downtown parking are going to get stuck paying for it.
I couldn't agree more. The businesses that benefit from parking should be the ones who pay for it, including the charter boats. If they balk, let the docks revert back to residential docks, and lots of people would be thrilled (and the city would generate more revenue and have less policing demand).
If the commerical businesses and landlords pay for the new parking, they pass it on to me in the cost of goods I buy from them. I have no problem with that, and will still frequent the Excelsior businesses and restaurants. In my opinion, that would be "my fair share", not paying for the parking through my property tax revenue.
yeah, we get it, you started a blog and you want people to read it. don't be a fraud by pretending the link is being posted by a third party. the dates of all three articles on your blog thus far are july 25, and i know some random person didn't find your blog and post the link yesterday, as it was there by last night.
and if your blog is so fair and balanced, why are you anonymous? do you own a business or are you an elected official in the city? are you a commission member or a lakeshore property owner? what is it you need to hide?
I have read the SouthLakeTonka blog and thus far it has been pretty good. It hasn't addressed parking, but it's thoughtful, even if it's anonymous.
I would like to see a parking ramp in Excelsior, and I'd support a small, and I mean small, share of it being financed by the residential tax base. But it had better be small? Did you hear that mayor?
The problem is that without outside funding, the business community will never be able to afford it. The existing businesses would love to see it built if they don't have to pay for it, new development won't pay for it...nobody will pay. There's not enough of a commercial district to finance one, so it will never happen. They will still talk about it years from now, but it will never happen.
I'm glad I live in Shorewood. And no, I don't use that precious downtown district on a regular basis. I went to your overrated Irish pub once, I don't need to fight for a parking spot with all the superficial posers who flock to Maynards or Bayside Grill, I have no use for a guitar or antique, either, so what does that leave, ice cream and an occasional movie? I'd rather go to a nice theater for a movie, not a crummy old downtown relic.
The South Lake Minnetonka blog has turned out to be rather lackluster. The anonymous author writes a bunch of stuff, but since s/he censors the commentary, it's not a true dialogue amongst the community. S/he has a political agenda, and is probably connected to some city representative in the area. Look for that blog to come out in support of some candidate somewhere a year from now. It's not clear if the author is a Shorewood or Excelsior resident, but all signs point to Shorewood. And it sounds like the author is a Wellens supporter, if not Wellens himself.
No, Marty Wellens, there's nothing new to report on the parking lots. Why don't you go back to giving away the Excelsior store and writing your stupid little South Lake blog.
Marty Wellens is a Shorewood Councilman, not Excelsior, you idiot.
And don't be fooled by the propaganda at the South Lake Minnetonka blog, I have submitted 4 or 5 comments that have not been posted. Most have disagreed with the opinion of the anonymous writer, questioning the motives behind the posts, and they're nowhere to be found.
Banter smanter, there's nothing to talk about. Exceslsior isn't progressive. The city won't build a parking ramp, especially under the watchful eye of Greg Miller. He's smarter than all of you put together!
We'll be lucky to see any new parking in this city in your lifetime.
all political agendas aside can we discuss parking. I noticed that apple days seemed to draw so many cars to the side streets. Is a parking garage an option to help with this?
You are nuts if you think a parking ramp is the answer to Apple Day. That's one day a year. Do you build a church to handle the capacity of Christmas day? No, so why build a ramp to meet the demands of four overflowing days per year: art fair two days, 4th of July one day, Apple day one day.
Furthermore the city isn't going to find the cash needed to build a legitimate ramp, it's just not. And neither the tax base or the business community is going to fork over the dough to pay for a ramp.
You want to spend millions of dollars to alleviate parking on Apple Day? Oh, that's rich!
Hey guys I see there has been some talk of the parking structure here. Has there been anything new to report? I do not know Greg Miller but I am aware he is on the city council. Is he the one pushing for the new parking structure?
Greg Miller will make sure our precious little hamlet never turns into an overgrown lakeshore destination by adding a parking ramp! And he is smarter than all of you!
I do not know where you live but your "precious little hamlet" is already an over grown lakeshore destination. Either you do not get out on weekends any more or you have a vision problem. I also believe Greg appears to be a smart guy and I also think the council has several other people that are very smart in ways that Greg is not. However I am not here to state my political bias which seems to be the goal of several people here. Now to the "Question" that never seems to get answered here at the "Downtown Ecelsior Parking Blog". Is the parking structure a dead topic or is there a true update from the council?
To all who have posted here, I will try to address a few of the issues.
First, this blog was started by the Excelsior City Staff - specifically it was set up by our planning intern who was heavily involved in studying the parking situation. Since his internship was completed and he left the City we have not been as diligent at keeping this up. As Chair of the Parking Task Force, that is my bad. I apologize to all.
Second, there is not just one "Anonymous" person posting on this site. The mechanics of the site provide the result that, if one does not register, then the name on their posts come us as "anonymous". Therefore, the speculation as to who "anonymous" is, while being a lot of fun, is to no avail. There are many "anonymous" posters.
Third, the Parking Task Force is still in being. I will attmpt to upload this post, and take some time to address the legitimate and appropriate issues about parking that have been raised here.
Fourth, we are now attempting to determine the administrator log on so that we can clean up some of the inappropriate (junk, off topic, etc.) postings. We will look at only those completely off topic for deletion. Just because a post is cynical, or presents a different viewpoint is not a reason to censure it. Only those offensive, off topic ones will be removed. Of course, all this is dependent on our determining the admistrator log on information.
Questions have been asked, "What is happening to our Parking expansion efforts?" First, we surveyed the places in Excelsior available to expand parking. The result is that the two easiest, most convient, least expensive and most likely spots for increased parking are the two City Owned lots between 2nd and 3rd Streets on each side of Water Street. We engaged a parking consultant company, Walker Parking Consultants, to determine how many parking spots we could put into those two lots. During that time, we found out that we did not know the actual boundaries of the lots.
So, we engaged a survey company to survey the lots and determine the actual boundaries. During that time, we discovered that we did not have title to all the land in the lots.
So, we engaged a real estate attorney to prove our ownership of the entire lots. There were no other entities claiming ownership, it was just that the City of Excelsior had never perfected our claim to ownership. At the present time, the process to perfect our ownership is ongoing, with an expected completion time as soon as the process can be completed. At the latest, it is a matter of months.
The survey is completed, and the survey company has been asked to install peremanent boundary markers so that the actual boundaries of the lots will be apparent to anyone who is interested. As a side note, our lots are larger than the paved portion that now seems to deliniate the lots. Especially in the East Lot, Excelsior's property line is 10's of feet to the East of the current pavement. In the West Lot, Excelsior's property line is considerably to the West and North of the edge of the pavement, in the Northwest Corner.
So, we have a good estimate of the costs to expand those lots to the legal boundaries, and the number of parking spots we could achieve to do so.
As usual in Excelsior, there are other complications that must be dealt with. As with much of our City, the lots do not meet the current standards for parking lots. For instance, the lots were built prior to the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)with its requirements. As with each property owner in the City, when a property is updated, it needs to meet the current standards. Meeting these standards significantly lowers the number of spaces that can be gained by expanding the lots. We now know the number of spaces to be gained if the lots are expanded to the property lines - and the City meets all the parking lot standards. Additionally, we know how many additional spots can be gained by building a one level ramp on each lot. We have a very good estimate of the costs to do those actions.
To recap, there are a number of permutations (a math term that means possibilities, sorry) that come from the following four options. 1. Increase the surface parking on one lot (either East or West lot) to the maximum amount possible. 2. Increase the surface parking on both lots to the maximum amount possible.
To build a deck in either lot, each surface lots need to be expanded to its property line because of the physical size needed on a ramp surface to provide driving lanes and parking spaces.
3. Build a one level parking ramp on one lot (either lot). 4. Build a one level parking ramp on both lots.
Continuing on that vein, the issue now is how to pay for them. In all cases, the yeild (number of parking spaces per dollar amount spent) means that each space will cost in the low tens of thousands of dollars.
Relative to the surface parking, the reason for the increased cost per spot is that we need to have more ADA compliant spaces, etc. So, even though we would expand the size of the lot, much of the expansion space would not provide more parking, but would be used to meet the standards for setbacks, ADA compliance and the like. (In fact, we COULD make the current lots compliant, and we would loose a good number of spots. That action is NOT being contemplated by ANYONE.)
So the issue now is how to pay for spots that cost so much. One way people think about is to have the businesses pay for them. Another is to have developers pay for them. Another way is to put them on the tax levy and have the whole Excelsior tax base pay for them. Another way is to find some other government (or non government) that will pay for them. Another way is to change our policy of providing free parking (except for the relatively few spots, principally on Lake and West Lake Streets, that have parking meters during the summer) and charge for parking. If we are to afford to expand parking, it is most likely that some combination of all/some/each of them will need to be made. I will do a quick primer in tax base on my next post to help understand the tax situation. However, there have been a couple of other questions about potential locations that need to be answered.
First, there is a question about the lot across from Maynard's Restaurant. Those two lots (one on each side of the LRT Trail) are owned by Bayview Event Center. That is the only parking that Bayview has. It is dedicated to their needs. While it is possible that the City could partner with Bayview by building a parking ramp over the surface parking lot, the costs would be considerably more than the East and West lots because of several factors. One is that the size and lay out of the lots is not conducive to effecient parking layout on a deck. Another is that there would be a loss of parking spots on the surface in order to put in supports and ramps to get to the upper level, and Bayview would have to be compensated for the loss of those spots, either by providing spots on the ramp, or monetarily. Another is that the City would now be responsible for plowing and maintaining the lots, since the deck would belong to it. Another is the location. If the lot is to be used by the City to provide parking for the downtown area (where most of the businesses in Excelsior exist) then there would need to be provided some method of people getting to Water Street and back.
Another question has been about the lot near where the new Excelsior Office Builing now is - the former Roy's Bait Shop location. That lot, to the East of Morse Avenue, and to the South of 3rd Street is for parking for the Headquarters Offices of Lyman Lumber, which fronts 3rd Street. While it might be possible to partner with Lyman Lumber to build a ramp on that space, over the Lyman Lumber surface parking, it would be much more expensive than the East and West Lots for all the same reasons spelled out above relative to the Bayview Event Center lots.
As for Darel Liepold's post that there needs to be an agreed upon description of the absolute parking situation in downtown Excelsior, the Task Force has spend a great deal of time and energy surveying that issue. We know those absolutes now. If we need to have more discussion in order for ALL to understand them, then let us do that. There are, however, different opinions about what the absolute numbers mean to Excelsior. That statement is based on us having gone through a summer with Jake O'Connor operating, Biela's operating, and other restaurants operating along with the Charter Boats. We did not seem to have complete chaos relative to parking. In fact, we seemed to have done OK, much to the surprise of some people who have been observers of the parking situation.
In the post about financing, the Charter Boats, along with the financing will be addressed.
Thanks for the thorough update. I was one of the skeptics thinking parking would be out of hand during the summer, and I was proven wrong. It was not as bad as many of us had expected.
That doesn't mean we can go an develop more bars / pubs with no ramifications, we are very close to choking the parking situation during peak times -- but I'm not sure if that means we are 3 spots away from choking or 40 spots away.
My main point is that Jake O'Connor's and Biella don't seem to have brought the parking situation to its knees, which many of us are thankful for. The fact that Jake's attracts a higher-end dinner crowd, in addition to the bargoers, makes a big difference on the number of cars and amount of coming and going.
I would add that it doesn't appear that Jake O'Connor's was as bustling this summer as it was in the winter and spring. I think people choose Maynards and Bayview when the weather is good. As a result, Jake O'Connor and the boats aren't competing for a scarcity of parking spots like we thought they would be.
Financial Reality for the City of Excelsior as it relates to parking. The primary revenue source for all cities in Minnesota is the property tax. Most folks beleive that the business properties contribute a whole lot of taxes to the cities, and since Excelsior has lots of business properties, it receives a lot of taxes from them. This belief does not bear up under examination. Lets see why.
Excelsior has a history of being the downtown of the South Lake. As such, while our currently surrounding Cities, especially Shorweood, were largely undeveloped rural properties, Excelsior was relative rich in many ways, especially tax base. Excelsior provided most all of the infrastructure, principally Police, Fire, Recreation, Downtown, Parks, Cemetery, etc. for all of the South Lake. With its much higher concentration of Businesses than surrounding Cities, it had the tax base, the identity and the generosity and willingness to share with our neighbors what it had.
These public uses, such as the Commons, the Cemetery, the Elementary School, the Churches, and the City owned and operated parking lots in downtown, and the like mean that 1/2 of the land in Excelsior is tax free. While that has been so for the most of modern Excelsior history, there have been some compensating income, reocgnizing the services Excelsior provides for our surrounding cities. That state aid has almost gone away.
That situation of Excelsior being the center of wealth of the South Lake Minnetonka has reversed in the past couple of decades. It seems important to get a basic understanding of the finances of the City of Excelsior and what has happened to them in the last decade in order to understand the parking financing issue.
First, there are both cost and revenue issues that have each moved a lot (each has moved in the direction to make Excelsior's financial picuture less favorable) in the last few years. To put iit in perspective, the general government budget for Excelsior is about $1.5 million. On the cost side, the largest cost of the City is our Police - without rehashing all the issues on this subject, just be aware that the total annual cost of police service to Excelsior has gone up well over $200,000 (from $361,000 in 1998 to $544,000 in 2007) in the last decade. Other costs, as in other cities, have gone up also.
However, the revenue side has hit Excelsior much harder. The state and county had recognized the role that Excelsior played in providing a central city services for the South Lake Minnetonka area, and provided, through programs such as Local Government Aid had provided 25% of Excelsior City revenue. Due to the state budget concerns, most of that money has gone away. Specifically that amount has gone down $200,000 (from $$326,000 in 1998 to $128,000 in 2007 in the last decade.
Those two actions alone have left an annual $400,000 hole to be made up in Excelsior budget. However, more directly to the point relative to parking, the State changed the manner in which commercial properties were taxed in 2004. This it technical, so stay with me here. The state lowered the "tax capacity" of commercial buidlings by 1/2 in that year. They also took school funding off the local property tax rolls and determined to finance schools from the state budget. In order to pay for that move, the state began to collect state taxes on commercial real estate, for the first time ever. So the bottom line is that commercial property has gone from a driver of Excelsior City revenue to at best, a break even proposition.
Even though commercial properties continue to pay larger amounts of taxes, relative to residential properties of similar value, the City portion of those taxes has significantly decreased, and the County and State portion has increased. For example, a commercial building in Excelsior worth $1 million (there are only a handful at that value or higher) will pay about $30,000 in total taxes, but the Excelsior portion of those taxes is only about $4,000 of the $30,000 total taxes paid. The rest go to the State, County, School and special districts. If that $1 million piece of property is newly developed, it will need about 15 parking spaces, unless it is a restaurant, in which case it will need about 25 to 30 parking spaces. If parking spaces cost $20,000 each (and that is the lowest cost per space in any of the studies Excelsior has done), then the total tax revenue to Excelsior from that property will only pay for providing 1 parking space every 5 years. ($20,000 per space divided by $4,000 per year tax revenue = 5 years). That leaves nothing for maintenance of that parking, or for any other city services provided to that newly developed commercial property. At that rate, Excelsior would use every dollar of taxes generated for the next 75 years (or over 100 years for a restaurant) just to build the parking to accomodate the new development. That disregards the cost to maintain and replace that parking space, as well as any other cost to the city from that business.
From these illustrations of a complex subject, I hope that you can see that the City cannot cover the cost of building new parking from its tax revenues. The City is strained to meet its operating costs from the current revenue. The City taxes have almost doubled in the past decade (from $647,000 in 1998 to $1,011,000 in 2007)to deal with the $400,000 hole described above. The Excelsior revenues to pay for more parking simply do not exist.
What about the developer paying?
Again, the numbers do not add up. To build the required spaces at $20,000 per space would add at $300,000 to $500,000 to the cost of $1 million project. The only way for a developer make any money is to rent the building to a business. The rent paid by the business operator must be enough money to pay back all the cost to build the building. When one increases the cost of the building by 30% to 60% to pay for the parking, then the rent cost is too high for a business owner to afford while still keeping a viable business. As it is, only certain businesses can afford to be in downtown Excelsior because the property costs have really gone up in the last decade. That is the reason we no longer have such ordinary staples as a hardware store, drug store, grocery store, bakery and such. The operating margins of those types of businesses is too low to afford the Excelsior rental rates now. Just think about how much higher the rents would have to be to pay for the costs of parking.
So, what is the answer to how to pay for increased parking? If we are to afford to expand parking, it is most likely that some combination of all/some/each of them (businesses pay, tax levy, some other government assistance, charge for parking, etc.) will need to be made. what are your thoughts?
In response to the previous two posts by Anonymous, you are very observant. Your thoughts about being pleased that the new restaurants did not bring the parking situation to a critical point this summer, as well as your idea that we are very close to a critical point in our parking are shared by the members of the Parking Task Force. I beleive most of the other City leaders also share those thoughts.
Thanks for your response. It does make it worthwhile to know that some folks are reading and posting here.
There is a big difference in the revenue to the City from Charter Boats than from real estate. In my prior post, I pointed out that very little of the tax revenue generated by commercial properties come to the City of Excelsior. About $4,000 out of every $30,000 of taxes (which is the amount of taxes paid by a $1 million commercial property) comes to Excelsior.
However, the Rentals and Fees charged to the Charter Boats for using the city docks comes totally to the City. The Commercial Charter Boats, in total, pay the City between $80,000 and $100,000 for dock use (for those calling on the City docks, but not docked there), dock rental, parking expansion charges, etc. For the City of Excelsior to receive an equivalent amount of revenue from commercial buildings would require $20 to $30 million of commercial building value. To put that into perspective, the Chrysler Dealship, from the State Tax rolls, is valued at about $2 million, so we would need about 10 to 15 such properties to bring to the City the amount of revenue from the Charter Boats. Maynards is valued at about $3.3 million, so we would need about 6 to 8 such properties to bring to the City the amount of revenue from the Charter Boats.
The Charter Boats also drive a demand for parking. They must be considered in the mix. However, the point in this post is to try and point out the amount of revenue they bring directly to the City. I do not know how much revenue they bring to the other businesses in Excelsior. And, there are clearly costs associated with the Charter Boats, such as building and maintaining the docks, dock patrol, and the like. So all their revenue to the City is not without costs.
Steve the info you passed along to this site was very informative and I greatly appreciate your effort to get this site back on track. Sounds to me like we should be looking to add more charter boats to the mix if at all possible.
Whether we need parking or not in this city, it doesn't seem like anything ever gets resolved. If we cannot expand anything downtown without additional parking then nothing will expand because lord knows the council will still be talking about long-term parking needs in 20 years.
Why are we thinking about spending money on parking? The side streets are free to park on and there are very few no parking signs on these side streets. The only time the side streets are full is the 4th of July. Why would we pay 20k per spot when there are free spots to be used all over town?
Why do we have to pay to create parking spots? Because rich fat cats are too lazy to walk. We are an obese society full of me-first types. These are the same slobs who drive around a mall parking lot for 20 minutes and back up a line of traffic for 5 minutes just to make sure they get a close spot to the entrance.
This world has gone to hell because everybody wants to take the easy way out wherever they go. Fat asses want to park near the door. Why do you think suburban malls with their big lots are such an attraction and downtown Minneapolis struggles to keep hold of its retail and restaurant businesses? Because its much easier to go to a mall and sit your fat ass in a motorized chair than it is to hoof it through downtown. That and the fact hoodlums are everywhere downtown. (We're lucky there's not a direct busline between downtown Minneapolis and Excelsior.)
If we really wanted to get people to shop and invest in our town we should build those moving walkways on our hideous looking sidewalks after we expand parking. Let's cater to fattest of the fat!
The country has a wieght issue not just Excelsior. But what does obesity have to do with discussing parking in Excelsior? Some in Excelsior may be heavy but at least they can read. This site is for parking discussion nothing else.
Who made your fat ass the keeper of the crypt? The fatness of Excelsior, and the rest of the world, is an issue when it comes to parking. Fat asses don't want to walk, so if you want to make your downtown vibrant, you have to make it easy for fatties like yourself to get to the storefronts. You Excelsior fat cats are so disgusting!
Is there a way to trace back to find an original sender in this blog? i think it would be of intrest to the people of Excelsior to know who the perfectly fit and intelligent person is that is sending such offensive comments to a parking blog.
Nope, there's not. Blogger doesn't tell you where anonymous comments come from. And whether it comes from you, me or our neighbor, does it really make a difference? No, it doesn't.
Why don't you people that are so interested in knowing what the progress is on parking expansion go to a council meeting and ask? Call the mayor. My God, how did you function 10 years ago without the internet? Be a little proactive, Christ!
There are a lot of problems in this country, and none bigger than how Excelsior can park more calls. It's so important that people flock to an abandoned blog to find out if there are any developments in this vital issue.
I sure like the idea of a developer paying for us to gain some more parking spaces. Let's hope we can get the pavillion and hotel up and moving forward. MAybe we have the pavillion developer pay to keep up an ice rink on the lake during the winter.
I agree free parking garage sounds great. I hope they can get these developers to work together and make the hotel and the pavillion look somwhat similar kind of like Wayzata has done with the building by the lake.
How is it a free parking garage when the city is giving lakeshore land for development? I have heard nothing mentioned about the pavillion property being paid for, just that a garage would be built in exchange for development rites. Why not sell the pavillion property and let the city spend the money on a ramp. Who would benefit from this "free" ramp the city would receive? The pavillion developer, that's who. What a scam!
This is hardly a freebie. That lakefront land is a city asset. Are we OK giving away an asset forever? The developer may be well-intentioned, but what about the flipper who buys it in 10 years or the speculator who buys it from that guy in 15 years?
Wow I would never anticipate our city council giving away free land. Are they that naive? I guess the people of Excelsior that elected the council are just as dumb. I say the city should do a 25, 50, 100 year lease on the land so there is a continous revenue stream into the city. The lease rate should be evaluated every 5, 10, 15,20 years and there should be a set adjustable rate increase that is allowed at each step along the way. If the devloper thinks the rate increase is to high then the pavillion that is on city land would be given back to the city. DOes that make any sense to anyone? THis way the city niether gives nor sells the land asset and maintains the right to the land????
I am a nearby resident & would really appreciate shuttle bus service for events like the Fourth of July. This was done a few years ago for the art fair. Why not for the Fourth? I would be willing to pay a few bucks to ride a shuttle from Minnetonka High School and avoid the hours long snarl after the fireworks. Thanks.
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187 Comments:
Hello Everyone - Here are some comments received from the two open houses regarding parking in Downtown Excelsior.
“Park and ride could provide spaces for evenings and weekends, restaurant use and special events. NSP land could work for this.”
“Do we have parking patrols or ticketing for cars that park beyond what the meter allows or the lot allows? Is this something the community would support?”
“How many dock spaces are there and what is the time frame for parking? (8 is not enough!)”
“I have customers daily that request more dock parking for shopping and dining in Excelsior.”
The City contracts for additional Police patrol in The Commons and on the City Dock. The Park Patrol checks the parking meters, enforces the time limits, and tickets those who exceed the limits. Most of the City's parking meters are adjacent to The Commons.
There are seven public spaces on the City Dock. The eighth space is reserved for charter boats that pay a fee to load and unload at the Dock.
I have been monitoring this site and thought I may gain some useful updates on the parking strucutre. I have not seen anyhting about the parking structure. Can someone update me?
The comments regarding Lake Forest, Ill. are very interesting and their experience may be helpful to Excelsior. The below ground parking would have the least impact on our Historic immage---I hope someone from the Parking task force contacts Lake Forest, and other Midwest Historic towns such the Historic town in NE Iowa maybe we won't need to reinvent the wheel...they all probably dealt with a parking issue.
Addressing the Parking is a complicated undertaking and many of us on Water/#'s St. are very greatful that we are truely doing so and look forward to a short term plan and a long term plan to address future parking needs.
We all want and are working towards keeping Excelsior healthy and vital through all the change that takes place.
We encourage
the City Council to be firm in their resolve to develope a workable parking plan.
the other town to contact is Galena Ill.--which is a very popular Historic Midwest town
I like the idea of outside advice but do we need to go to Illinois to get it? Unless we have some type of prejudice against talking to towns in our area I would think Wayzata could be a helpful contact. Similar types of people as Excelsior (life time livers who want no change and new people who think it should be freshened up.) Sounds like a cheap resource to start with. Has the parking commision talked to them? I would guess there are a few river towns or other lake towns in our area that could help as well. I lived in Lake Forest for 2 years and visited Galena several times they are very nice towns and could be helpful at some point but there is value in a cheap face to face meeting with some local folks with similar problems to excelsior that I believe is valuable.
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It would seem that the suggestions offered regarding talking to other midwest cities are not exclusive considerations.
These towns as well as local towns have all had to deal with parking which is a universal problem. The idea to gather information from relevant sources to help develope our parking plan. Find out what has worked and what has been a mistake or what could have been a better approach.
we need to learn from others that is a cheap lesson
SO has anyone contacted Lake Forest, Galena or Wayzata yet to find out what issues they have had?
Does the city really need more parking? The side streets are free to park on and other than major events they do not seem to be filling up. Is this parking issue a waste of city time and money? I know I can walk a block or 2 when I go downtown Minneapolis is that to much to ask of people visiting Excelsior??? I also thought there was a city council member complaining that there was to many parking spaces in Excelsior and from a safety stand point we needed to limit the number of spaces for times such as the 4ht of July. The city went so far as to paint the curbs yellow to show the no parking areas. Where is the city really going with this? What am I missing here?
In the 35 years that we have been in business on Water St. in Excelsior, I have learned that there can be a great deal of variation in how one might drscribe a situation in our city. Take what seems to be an absolute and one will find the discriptions will be poles apart. The absolute in this case is "Parking availability in downtown Excelsior." We need to agree on what the absolute is and only then can we seek a solution. Darel Leipold
Thanks to all who have weighed in. Your comments are important, and will be considered as we continue the planning.
We are looking forward to the November 1st public meeting to share what the task force has learned to date. The meeting is at 7:00 PM in the Council chambers. Please spread the word.
I would like to thank the city council for making this blog and "eDemocracy" available for those of us new to Excelsior. This is a terrific medium for letting newcomers get up to speed on issues quickly, and I encourage you to continue utilizing blogs for discussion and public comment in the future.
I have recently heard about the vision document describing a development plan for Excelsior in the coming years. Is this available somewhere? I see a lot of new devlopment in just one year, and am interested in what the "big picture" is.
On the parking topic:
We are just completing our first year living in wonderful Excelsior, after spending the last ten in the Grand & Victoria area of St. Paul. Parking was becoming a major issue for the stores in the Victoria crossing area, and after much debate, a 3-story structure was built to replace a chronically full surface lot. A facade was built on the structure to make it blend in with the older brick building on the other three corners. I don't know the final cost, but the final structure is aesthetically pleasing, and provided the necessary space - so I know that a "tasteful" solution is possible.
From what I can see, Excelsior has some very specific needs regarding parking:
- Charter boat operations probably account for a significant part of the summer peak parking volume
- A new library will draw more daytime traffic
- Jake O'Connor's will draw more evening traffic
- Desire to keep parking traffic away from trails, commons, and "lower" Water street.
Steve Finch posted a great explanation of some of the issues facing the council - and this one struck me as particularly relevant:
It does have a cost - that cost has been borne by the general City taxes for the last many years. Significant changes in the tax structure facing Excelsior have severely strained that option. Two of the major ones were:
1. The state changed the relative taxes paid by business, multi family dwellings, and single family dwellings. That means that the business community and multi family complexes in Excelsior are paying a considerable smaller portion of the Excelsior taxes than they have historically paid.
If parking is truly becoming/projected to be an issue in the near term, what can be done to "set the scales back"? Surely the businesses and multi-family dwellings using the parking should be the primary means of supporting any needed expansion.
Thanks.
I do not see why there is a need for this parking structure. The side streets are not being used at all. I do not believe in the theory "If you build it they will come!" Let's see if they come and then build it once they are here. For now over flow parking should go to the side streets. The city council should start putting money aside for a parking structure now. If at some point in the future we need the parking structure we can dip into the "Parking structure fund" to help finance it. During the 4th of July holliday the town has more people in it than all the stores ,restaraunts, and charter boats combined can hold and we seem to be able to facilitate parking for all of them. What am I still missing here?? Is someone getting a kickback? Is the consultant someones brother? is this Chicago politics????
Well, I woul encourage Excelsior to increase their parking control, their ticket issuing, wheel clamping !!! Pleople should take their push bike and be less dependant of their car. It is proven that even if citizens are usually against such mesure...they all in favour when asked 2 years after measure has been implemented.
So here is a link for Excelsior:
http://www.streetmanagement.co.uk
Less car...live better !!!
WHO SAYS WE HAVE A PARKING PROBLEM?IF YOU MUST WALK TWO OR EVEN THREE BLOCK TO VISIT YOUR DESTINATION DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A PARKING PROBLEM?I HOPE ANY SURVEY OF THE NEED CONSIDERS WHO WILL BE PAYING THE BILL;OUR DOWNTOWN MERCHANTS DON'T NEED MORE COSTS.
I encourage everyone to take a step back from the political campaigning that plagued our little city this past season and littered our streets, our yards, our skies (in some instances on W. Lake Street), and a candidates TRUCK. After digging into "the new parking structure" that was supposedly already agreed to, I found out some pretty interesting tips and ideas. First, there is no parking structure agreed to. The city is simply exploring all of our options in regards to parking here in Excelsior. We do have a parking problem and if you think we don't wait until Jake's opens and you will definitely be convinced. Many speak of side streets and three block walks; guess what, I don't want people parking on my street, in front of my house, and waking me up drunk at 2 in the morning returning from the bar, and running over my cats or your children. Growth in downtown has been progressing, but not at a rate that is desirable to residents - for the plain fact of TAX RELIEF. The more taxes the business district can generate, the lower our residential taxes will be. Many businesses have decided upon other cities BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF PARKING HERE. If you want lower taxes, we need to encourage more businesses to locate in Excelsior and STOP THEM FROM LEAVING. Hopefully with this change in city council we can help re-develop the image we have made for ourselves over the past several years of being unaccomadating and difficult to do business with. We need to promote ourselves and encourage good, sound development of our business district. The naysayers should move somewhere that isn't a desirable place to live and hence they can have lower taxes and be grumpy all the time. That place isn't Excelsior nor do we want it to be.
I live and work in town, so I have chance to see the area during all times throughout the week. Sure, there are times when the lots aren’t full, but there are also a lot of basic businesses that I wish would move here. I for one wouldn't mind a couple more amenities in town (grocery store, drug store, a couple more mid-priced restaurants that aren’t Haskell’s). I don’t know the exact math, but if parking is the only thing preventing this from happening, then I’d say get some more parking. Developers can help pay for it, since they will benefit from it.
To me, the question is not if we should expand our parking, but where?. Seems to me that any parking expansion should benefit the Maynard's / Bayview / Ryan Building area in addition to Water Street. We sometimes act as if Water Street is the only street in town that brings in visitors. There is a lot more to our downtown than Water Street.
Who owns that lot across from Maynards? Would it be possible to do a private / public partnership parking expansion in that area? How about the lots off of 3rd street between Water and Mill that you can see from the walking trail, near the new office building that is going up? There is the point raised by several bloggers about it trying to keep traffic out of residential areas that I tend to agree with. Prime development locations will follow a parking structure. Doesn’t it make sense to have the parking located near spots that we’d like to infill? Who knows what the ugly corridor next to Highway 7 would attract if those spots were walking distance from good parking!
By the way, if the 4th of July parking situation (referred to in one post) becomes the norm, I'm moving!
Where will the "new businesses" be located? Hessberg seemed to have a real hard time dealing with the council when he wanted to put his building up on hwy 7 and his included its own parking. Another devloper wanted to add 5 feet of height to a building and was shot down. The building next to the cleaners was slightly to tall and they had city issues and I have not even mentioned that there really is very limited ground space left around town for development. Where will they build? With the new development going in where pizza hut is are they adding parking there? Maybe they should be forced to add enough to accomadate everyone in town that does not have there own garage plus enoough to facilitate the boats and dumpsters as well as the front end loaders that are parked on the side streets??
Jakes was allowed to open and conduct business by the elected city council with the current parking situation in mind. I think we should relax and see how it affects our parking.
To the person that lets the cat roam free at 2 a.m please keep it in your house or when it is out you should be as well. Cats spread disease and by letting them roam they may access kid’s sandboxes and spread that disease. You are obviously worried about kids as you mention you are worried about them being hit be the "drunks at 2 a.m." I have kids but I generally like to have them in bed well before this time of night. Your concern about the drunks should really be directed towards the policing of our town and not to the parking concern. Last I checked you do not own the street you live on but you have the right to use the street and so do others. By calling the street yours you have proven to me that you are thinking about what is in your best interest and not what is in the best interest of the community!
What businesses have attempted to come to town but did not because of parking concerns? Where were they going to be located? Is the town going to start developing in a north, south, east, or west direction? I think a little foot traffic through the side streets could help add to property values as well as create a more social enviroment. Are we all anti social?
Until our business district is paying for the majority of the city budget, then I actually do believe that the streets belong to the residents.
I agree that many of these issues are just as much about policing as they are about parking. Good observation by whoever wrote that one. It shouldn't be the end of the world of someone parks on a residential street, but the residents on those streets should also be able to expect peace and quiet at 2am.
When saying the streets belong to the residents do you mean I own the area of street in front of my house or do you mean all residents including people from outside excelsior? I believe that taxes of all citizens from the town plus some money from Hennipin county help pay for our streets. There for the streets should remain open to public parking. If we do not want to have it this way we better go spend some more money on no parking signs. Your peace and quiet issue is still a issue for the police. If the police arrest a few people early on for either public intoxication or for being to loud the word will get out and it will not be a probleem. But the bottom line is the noise concern is a police issue. Maybe the city should study how loud it is at 2 a.m. when Haskells closes.
Excelsiorites have become accustomed to equating traffic and parking with noise and nuisance (be it at the Commons or in the downtown area). This is probably due to the lack of policing during the past few years. This should now improve as our policing improves, and a CSO is brought on.
I agree the policing has already been improving! Now I hope we get to move forward with the conversationg of, do we need a parking structure?
Looks like Jake's is just about ready to open. When it does, we'll all have a better idea of how severe (or not) the parking situation is.
What is happening to the Pizza Hut building? Is that going to be a renovation / remodel that also competes for the parking spaces? I see that all the businesses are gone.
any new updates?
is this site still active?
no - this site is dead just like downtown Excelsior. let it go - let it fade to nothing. this inactive change resistant community needs to let go of the 1950's hardware store, grocery store, and dry cleaners. it just won't happen again. let it go. let something new come in. change it up. excelsior is attractive to people because of the possibilities, but with possibilities come change and you have to allow some change to occur.
can someone delete the spam that the site has been targeted with?
-shorewood-er
Could someone please publish the formula we are using to monitor the parking situation?? I fear it may be a classic excelsior formula of the small amount of no-change wanting whinners crys stomps there feet and complains until the city caves into to there demands. Or the other Excelsior classic of set a date to decide on something important but instead of voting on that day move the vote up a week so there is no opposition there to argue against it (like the council did to elect the new city planning commissioner)
I love the fact that people are complaining about people walking/parking by thier house at the same time the city is going to improve the sidewalks. Who are we kidding we do not need sidewalks we need barbed wire with big keep out signs at our borders. I sure hope Bush sends troops soon because we are being over run by fellow sububanites walking and parking on our public streets in order to help our local businesses. This really sucks. Please get the signs and wire up before summer. I would hate for our town to improve or grow. this may increase our property value and that in turn would increase our wealth all Bad things. Please help me in my campaign to get all businesses shutdown so my property value decreases.
Are you implying that in order for excelsior to be a growing community with strong property values, we need to be content with our residential streets looking like they do on the 4th of July?
I don't think anyone is complaining about people walking in front of their houses. The potential for it to get excessive, and at what hours of the night it is excessive, is the issue.
It is not an either/or topic. We should be able to have a strong downtown and at the same time keep our neighborhoods quaint and somewhat quiet. That is the whole point of this parking issue.
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I think people (this poster included) need to stop posting anonymously and use real names. It would add more credibility to this dialogue and make it more productive.
I think we need to look at the formula being used to monitor the parking in town in order to better understand the goals here. What formula are they using to monitor it? Is it line of sight or is there a real system? Also can we wait until we get through one summer with Jakes before deciding we need to spend $5 million on a parking ramp? I recall living in a town where there was overflow parking that went into the residential section of town and people parked on the PUBLIC STREETS of that town and the interaction was pleasant. I am not sure what types of interactions most of you have with the visitors on the 4th of July but most of mine have been enjoyable. And let's remember the 4th of July only happens once a year even in Excelsior. I understand the goal of not letting the town get over blown to the point you can not drive but does adding a parking lot that will hold an additional 500 cars for 5 million dollars make it all better?
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This site really went to hell. So much for the parking discussion.
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Is there a downtown Excelsior business that sells Viagra? How much more expensive is it in Excelsior versus online?
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How can you hijack a thread when it has no driver? Can you hijack an abandoned bus?
Forget the Viagra, I need a good stock tip. Everybody I know is getting hot tips in their inbox, and now retiring. I'd like to get in on that action, so I can buy a nice piece of Greenwood real estate. Yes, Greenwood. I want the privilege of living in the Excelsior area without all the stupidity of Excelsior politics!
I am looking for half price Cealis, however.
What would Dick Mueller do?
When is that parking ramp going to be built. I remember hearing during the last election that a vote for Nick Ruehl was a vote for a ramp. Well spring is here, construction season is underway, so when does it happen?
Parking ramp, who needs it? N obody as long as the city doesn't want a Starbucks.
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Why do Excelsior residents hate people so much? Just gate the damn city.
Where am I supposed to park my big ass SUV?
Gate the city? I hadn't thought of that, but it sure would save us on our policing and parking costs!
There's such a sense of entitlement in Excelsior I can't believe they haven't gated the community already. It would not only save on policing costs, it'd drive property values through the roof, and everyone would be happy.
What Excelsior needs to do is kick the churches out of town, they waste precious real estate with their tax-free status.
Churches are a detriment to a community, not an asset.
I'm still looking for a cheap airline ticket!
Entitlement mentality in Excelsior? Sure, if you mean that neighboring communities feel entitled to use Excelsior as they wish, free of charge.
Excelsior residents shouldn't flatter themselves so much. There ain't much in your little town worth using. The Commons has nice views of the lake, but I've seen water before. A big grassy park ain't that special. You can keep your art festival and 4th of July crap, it ain't worth the trouble to come see. You have a few businesses that are worth patronizing, and I think they pay property taxes to your city, so I'm not getting a free ride when I use your city. Your town is the armpit of the Lake Minnetonka communities, and we love it a whole lot less than you think we do. If you think we all love visiting your crummy little city, you are HIGHLY delusional.
I would rather pee on Excelsior's hallowed Commons before I'd spend a day there.
The Commons is a waste of space. Excelsior's forefathers were idiots.
somebody needs to start a website called www.excelsiorsucks.com!
Is there an update on the actual parking work being done in the city (which was the original intent of this blog, I believe).
"Anonymous" and "Deephaven Snob" aside, there are thousands of people who choose to find their way to Excelsior each week, and we need to continue to to of where they are going to park!
Is Excelsior going to attempt to build a parking garage?
Fellow anonymous folks: You must have a lot of spare time on your hands to type all the garbage that you have. Why don't you put your fat lazy ass on the couch and focus your attention on eating your cheetos and playing your video games while the rest of us focus on the future of the community you live in. Wheather the parking garage is a good idea or not some people care to hear/read what is being debated so that we can use the gray matter in our heads to decide what we think is best.
A lot of spare time? Really?
How long does it take to type an anonymous comment, 30 seconds....60 seconds at most?
How does that translate into a lot of spare time?
If you spend a lot of your spare time typing insults into a blog, why aren't you on the couch with Cheetos and video games? You sound like one of the people you chastise. A little case of the pot calling the kettle black, clearly.
Any updates on parking garage?
O.K. Kettle, please give me some insight about what the fine town of excelsior has planned for the parking garage?
Who is Kettle?
I hope they build a big ass garage so they can cram downtown full of businesses and the city's share of policing costs go up up up!
Build it, Excelsior, please!
But what is being debated? What are they planning to do? What studies are they doing? Who will pay for it? It being extra policing and the cost of the structure?
Ah, thanks for all the intelligent discussion, guys.
Can these forums be setup for only registered users to post on? That would promote better dialogue, and the real losers could be blocked from posting.
Why aren't you posting as a registered user, "wally s."?
if you were such a winner, you'd be registered, wouldn't you? if you were such a winner, you'd list your last name, wouldn't you?
it seems you are a hypocrite, "wally."
Wally S. sounds like the same loser who made the stupid comment about Cheetos and video games on the couch.
This site is "Downtown Excelsior Parking Blog." Can we please all just get along and have some constructive discussion about parking in Excelsior? There is no need for the excess negative comments directed towards one another. We need some good debate on parking? Any updates on this?
Thanks for attempting to get this blog back on track. Parking this summer appears to be managing, from what I've seen.
Do we know if any of the new building projects, specifically the Pizza Hut building or the 2nd phase of the Promenade, are being held up by parking problems?
Hey great it appears this blog is back on track. HAs anyone been updated on the parking structure? I have been driving around the Excelsior Village at different times both on weekends and week days. The parking does not seem to be to bad at this point. Side streets were used for art on the lake but other than that I think traffic/parking seems to be running pretty smooth.
Where can I get discounted Viagra?
Wally S. will probably sell you some. He's a real upstanding guy. I like to think of him as a "winner."
Anyone who owns property in Excelsior should be ashamed to be associated with such a two-bit city.
Hey great it looks like the blog was back on track. Any updates on the parking structure? Anyone have a clue why people that do not have any info, feedback or questions that pertain to the topic "downtown Excelsior Parking" are on this blog? Could someone please give an update on the appropriate topic.
I have an update for you: there's no parking ramp in Excelsior and there's no parking ramp coming any time soon. It will cost a couple million dollars to build one ramp and that money isn't exactly laying around. All the planning and talking won't change the fact it will be a cold day in Excelsior before a ramp is built.
There, there's your update. Go buy some coffee, antiques and other overpriced crap in your shabby downtown. I'll go shop in a real city.
They should turn that dumpy commons into a big parking lot. That place sux!
I agree that the parking has not yet been an issue this summer. Days like Art on the Lake and the upcoming 4th of July are the exceptions; of course parking will be difficult on those days. However, on other days, it seems to be generally good. We have a thriving little downtown with some exciting new business. I know alot of people from places like Eden Prairie and Minnetonka who before wouldn't have trekked out here, and now are making regular visits.
Lots of momentum, and the parking so far hasn't been a major problem.
Thanks a ton for the updates! I love the commons! Great beach, fun fireworks, art on the lake and Thursday has music in the park. Can it get any better than this??? To those that call Excelsior a City though I must laugh at you HAHAHAHAH get out and experience the big world, Minneapolis is barely a city. Back off the small quaint little drinking village of Excelsior no one said you ever had to visit the small town so please please please if you do not like it stay out of it the rest of us will survive without you.
What about the Maynards area? It seems like that is where the most severe traffic and parking issues are. There is that big lot across from Maynards - could that be a public / private venture to build a ramp there?
Does anyone fear adding more parking in the maynards area may cause maynards and bayside to get over crowded? Are they close to maximum occupancy on the weekends already? I think any new structure should be setup to focus on main street. I am open to discussion but i think behind the east side of mainstreet looks good.
Good point. It is probably safe to assume that wherever a future parking structure is built, there will be higher demand to renovate and attract commercial tenants for the businesses right around it. That is what happened when they did the ramp at 50th and France.
Makes sense to stick the structure someplace where it is surrounded by commercial properties on all 4 sides. Could really give them a boost.
I agree soo much. I hope we can get all this stuff figured out.
I hope they never build a ramp in Excelsior because it'll just encourage more riff raff to come to town for the 4th of July. Why do we bother with all that crap, it's not worth the hassle.
I'm sure the 4th of July celebration could warrant a lively thread all its own. Strong feelings on that topic. As for parking, I have a feeling the people are going to come to town on the 4th whether there is a ramp or not.
I thought the 4th went real well. I was in the park all day and the music was fantastic!!! i also thought considering how nice the weather was that there was plenty of parking and even after the fireworks were done the town cleared out pretty fast. So far so good on Parking. With the housing market going down the drain the city really should hold off on spending until we get a better picture on the tax revenue going forward. Does anyone know how long until the city starts lowering our property taxes because of the decreasing value of our homes???
Fourth of July was not as crowded this year, in part, perhaps, because of stories that the fireworks funds were underwhelming. Whether or not people assumed the show would be weak, or canceled, is unknown.
There was also no show listing in the Star Tribune's fireworks list. The show was listed in some online news databases, but not the Strib.
It may have been a combination of those factors that helped keep the turnout low.
We will never see a resolution to the parking debate because the city cannot even decide how to replace its sidewalks. It's pathetic.
Yes, parking has taken a bit of a back seat to other issues. I guess you can't accuse the council of railroading this project through.
Why should homeowners have to pay for 100 percent of the cost to replace them?
Why is that cost not spread around like it would be for parking? You know a lot of people who have no use for additional downtown parking are going to get stuck paying for it.
I couldn't agree more. The businesses that benefit from parking should be the ones who pay for it, including the charter boats. If they balk, let the docks revert back to residential docks, and lots of people would be thrilled (and the city would generate more revenue and have less policing demand).
If the commerical businesses and landlords pay for the new parking, they pass it on to me in the cost of goods I buy from them. I have no problem with that, and will still frequent the Excelsior businesses and restaurants. In my opinion, that would be "my fair share", not paying for the parking through my property tax revenue.
Another Lake Minnetonka area blog - talks about Excelsior some
http://southlaketonka.blogspot.com/
yeah, we get it, you started a blog and you want people to read it. don't be a fraud by pretending the link is being posted by a third party. the dates of all three articles on your blog thus far are july 25, and i know some random person didn't find your blog and post the link yesterday, as it was there by last night.
and if your blog is so fair and balanced, why are you anonymous? do you own a business or are you an elected official in the city? are you a commission member or a lakeshore property owner? what is it you need to hide?
I have read the SouthLakeTonka blog and thus far it has been pretty good. It hasn't addressed parking, but it's thoughtful, even if it's anonymous.
I would like to see a parking ramp in Excelsior, and I'd support a small, and I mean small, share of it being financed by the residential tax base. But it had better be small? Did you hear that mayor?
The problem is that without outside funding, the business community will never be able to afford it. The existing businesses would love to see it built if they don't have to pay for it, new development won't pay for it...nobody will pay. There's not enough of a commercial district to finance one, so it will never happen. They will still talk about it years from now, but it will never happen.
I'm glad I live in Shorewood. And no, I don't use that precious downtown district on a regular basis. I went to your overrated Irish pub once, I don't need to fight for a parking spot with all the superficial posers who flock to Maynards or Bayside Grill, I have no use for a guitar or antique, either, so what does that leave, ice cream and an occasional movie? I'd rather go to a nice theater for a movie, not a crummy old downtown relic.
The South Lake Minnetonka blog has turned out to be rather lackluster. The anonymous author writes a bunch of stuff, but since s/he censors the commentary, it's not a true dialogue amongst the community. S/he has a political agenda, and is probably connected to some city representative in the area. Look for that blog to come out in support of some candidate somewhere a year from now. It's not clear if the author is a Shorewood or Excelsior resident, but all signs point to Shorewood. And it sounds like the author is a Wellens supporter, if not Wellens himself.
I don't know which is lamer, the South Lake Minnetonka blog or the Excelsior Parking blog. Both are pretty pointless, it seams.
Is there any new news on the parking garage?
No, Marty Wellens, there's nothing new to report on the parking lots. Why don't you go back to giving away the Excelsior store and writing your stupid little South Lake blog.
Marty Wellens is a Shorewood Councilman, not Excelsior, you idiot.
And don't be fooled by the propaganda at the South Lake Minnetonka blog, I have submitted 4 or 5 comments that have not been posted. Most have disagreed with the opinion of the anonymous writer, questioning the motives behind the posts, and they're nowhere to be found.
I am not marty whoever but I am an Excelsior home owner wondering if there is an update on the parking structure.
Marty whoever? Do you live under an Excelsior rock! Why don't you get out of the house once in a while?
With all the banter aside, if the parking group has an update please post it here. Several of us would like to know where we stand today.
Banter smanter, there's nothing to talk about. Exceslsior isn't progressive. The city won't build a parking ramp, especially under the watchful eye of Greg Miller. He's smarter than all of you put together!
We'll be lucky to see any new parking in this city in your lifetime.
Greg Miller is a genius. Thats why he was elected mayor.
all political agendas aside can we discuss parking. I noticed that apple days seemed to draw so many cars to the side streets. Is a parking garage an option to help with this?
God bless Greg Miller.
You are nuts if you think a parking ramp is the answer to Apple Day. That's one day a year. Do you build a church to handle the capacity of Christmas day? No, so why build a ramp to meet the demands of four overflowing days per year: art fair two days, 4th of July one day, Apple day one day.
Furthermore the city isn't going to find the cash needed to build a legitimate ramp, it's just not. And neither the tax base or the business community is going to fork over the dough to pay for a ramp.
You want to spend millions of dollars to alleviate parking on Apple Day? Oh, that's rich!
I agree that the 4th, Art on the Lake, and Apple Day will always be the exception. Lets not gear the parking solution for those 4 days.
Who elected Greg Miller mayor?
He's smarter than the average bear, I'll give him that.
So the bottom line is there is no update on the parking garage?? Is it a dead topic?
Hey guys I see there has been some talk of the parking structure here. Has there been anything new to report? I do not know Greg Miller but I am aware he is on the city council. Is he the one pushing for the new parking structure?
Greg Miller will make sure our precious little hamlet never turns into an overgrown lakeshore destination by adding a parking ramp! And he is smarter than all of you!
I do not know where you live but your "precious little hamlet" is already an over grown lakeshore destination. Either you do not get out on weekends any more or you have a vision problem. I also believe Greg appears to be a smart guy and I also think the council has several other people that are very smart in ways that Greg is not. However I am not here to state my political bias which seems to be the goal of several people here.
Now to the "Question" that never seems to get answered here at the "Downtown Ecelsior Parking Blog". Is the parking structure a dead topic or is there a true update from the council?
Parking topic: dead
Excelsior's future as a decent community worth the property taxes we pay: dead
To all who have posted here, I will try to address a few of the issues.
First, this blog was started by the Excelsior City Staff - specifically it was set up by our planning intern who was heavily involved in studying the parking situation. Since his internship was completed and he left the City we have not been as diligent at keeping this up. As Chair of the Parking Task Force, that is my bad. I apologize to all.
Second, there is not just one "Anonymous" person posting on this site. The mechanics of the site provide the result that, if one does not register, then the name on their posts come us as "anonymous". Therefore, the speculation as to who "anonymous" is, while being a lot of fun, is to no avail. There are many "anonymous" posters.
Third, the Parking Task Force is still in being. I will attmpt to upload this post, and take some time to address the legitimate and appropriate issues about parking that have been raised here.
Fourth, we are now attempting to determine the administrator log on so that we can clean up some of the inappropriate (junk, off topic, etc.) postings. We will look at only those completely off topic for deletion. Just because a post is cynical, or presents a different viewpoint is not a reason to censure it. Only those offensive, off topic ones will be removed. Of course, all this is dependent on our determining the admistrator log on information.
Thanks
OK, I did remember how to post here.
Questions have been asked, "What is happening to our Parking expansion efforts?"
First, we surveyed the places in Excelsior available to expand parking. The result is that the two easiest, most convient, least expensive and most likely spots for increased parking are the two City Owned lots between 2nd and 3rd Streets on each side of Water Street.
We engaged a parking consultant company, Walker Parking Consultants, to determine how many parking spots we could put into those two lots. During that time, we found out that we did not know the actual boundaries of the lots.
So, we engaged a survey company to survey the lots and determine the actual boundaries. During that time, we discovered that we did not have title to all the land in the lots.
So, we engaged a real estate attorney to prove our ownership of the entire lots. There were no other entities claiming ownership, it was just that the City of Excelsior had never perfected our claim to ownership. At the present time, the process to perfect our ownership is ongoing, with an expected completion time as soon as the process can be completed. At the latest, it is a matter of months.
The survey is completed, and the survey company has been asked to install peremanent boundary markers so that the actual boundaries of the lots will be apparent to anyone who is interested. As a side note, our lots are larger than the paved portion that now seems to deliniate the lots. Especially in the East Lot, Excelsior's property line is 10's of feet to the East of the current pavement. In the West Lot, Excelsior's property line is considerably to the West and North of the edge of the pavement, in the Northwest Corner.
So, we have a good estimate of the costs to expand those lots to the legal boundaries, and the number of parking spots we could achieve to do so.
As usual in Excelsior, there are other complications that must be dealt with. As with much of our City, the lots do not meet the current standards for parking lots. For instance, the lots were built prior to the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)with its requirements. As with each property owner in the City, when a property is updated, it needs to meet the current standards. Meeting these standards significantly lowers the number of spaces that can be gained by expanding the lots. We now know the number of spaces to be gained if the lots are expanded to the property lines - and the City meets all the parking lot standards. Additionally, we know how many additional spots can be gained by building a one level ramp on each lot. We have a very good estimate of the costs to do those actions.
To recap, there are a number of permutations (a math term that means possibilities, sorry) that come from the following four options.
1. Increase the surface parking on one lot (either East or West lot) to the maximum amount possible.
2. Increase the surface parking on both lots to the maximum amount possible.
To build a deck in either lot, each surface lots need to be expanded to its property line because of the physical size needed on a ramp surface to provide driving lanes and parking spaces.
3. Build a one level parking ramp on one lot (either lot).
4. Build a one level parking ramp on both lots.
Continuing on that vein, the issue now is how to pay for them. In all cases, the yeild (number of parking spaces per dollar amount spent) means that each space will cost in the low tens of thousands of dollars.
Relative to the surface parking, the reason for the increased cost per spot is that we need to have more ADA compliant spaces, etc. So, even though we would expand the size of the lot, much of the expansion space would not provide more parking, but would be used to meet the standards for setbacks, ADA compliance and the like. (In fact, we COULD make the current lots compliant, and we would loose a good number of spots. That action is NOT being contemplated by ANYONE.)
So the issue now is how to pay for spots that cost so much.
One way people think about is to have the businesses pay for them. Another is to have developers pay for them. Another way is to put them on the tax levy and have the whole Excelsior tax base pay for them. Another way is to find some other government (or non government) that will pay for them. Another way is to change our policy of providing free parking (except for the relatively few spots, principally on Lake and West Lake Streets, that have parking meters during the summer) and charge for parking. If we are to afford to expand parking, it is most likely that some combination of all/some/each of them will need to be made. I will do a quick primer in tax base on my next post to help understand the tax situation. However, there have been a couple of other questions about potential locations that need to be answered.
First, there is a question about the lot across from Maynard's Restaurant. Those two lots (one on each side of the LRT Trail) are owned by Bayview Event Center. That is the only parking that Bayview has. It is dedicated to their needs. While it is possible that the City could partner with Bayview by building a parking ramp over the surface parking lot, the costs would be considerably more than the East and West lots because of several factors. One is that the size and lay out of the lots is not conducive to effecient parking layout on a deck. Another is that there would be a loss of parking spots on the surface in order to put in supports and ramps to get to the upper level, and Bayview would have to be compensated for the loss of those spots, either by providing spots on the ramp, or monetarily. Another is that the City would now be responsible for plowing and maintaining the lots, since the deck would belong to it. Another is the location. If the lot is to be used by the City to provide parking for the downtown area (where most of the businesses in Excelsior exist) then there would need to be provided some method of people getting to Water Street and back.
Another question has been about the lot near where the new Excelsior Office Builing now is - the former Roy's Bait Shop location. That lot, to the East of Morse Avenue, and to the South of 3rd Street is for parking for the Headquarters Offices of Lyman Lumber, which fronts 3rd Street. While it might be possible to partner with Lyman Lumber to build a ramp on that space, over the Lyman Lumber surface parking, it would be much more expensive than the East and West Lots for all the same reasons spelled out above relative to the Bayview Event Center lots.
As for Darel Liepold's post that there needs to be an agreed upon description of the absolute parking situation in downtown Excelsior, the Task Force has spend a great deal of time and energy surveying that issue. We know those absolutes now. If we need to have more discussion in order for ALL to understand them, then let us do that. There are, however, different opinions about what the absolute numbers mean to Excelsior. That statement is based on us having gone through a summer with Jake O'Connor operating, Biela's operating, and other restaurants operating along with the Charter Boats. We did not seem to have complete chaos relative to parking. In fact, we seemed to have done OK, much to the surprise of some people who have been observers of the parking situation.
In the post about financing, the Charter Boats, along with the financing will be addressed.
Please post questions, if you will.
Thanks,
Steve Finch
Thanks for the thorough update. I was one of the skeptics thinking parking would be out of hand during the summer, and I was proven wrong. It was not as bad as many of us had expected.
That doesn't mean we can go an develop more bars / pubs with no ramifications, we are very close to choking the parking situation during peak times -- but I'm not sure if that means we are 3 spots away from choking or 40 spots away.
My main point is that Jake O'Connor's and Biella don't seem to have brought the parking situation to its knees, which many of us are thankful for. The fact that Jake's attracts a higher-end dinner crowd, in addition to the bargoers, makes a big difference on the number of cars and amount of coming and going.
I would add that it doesn't appear that Jake O'Connor's was as bustling this summer as it was in the winter and spring. I think people choose Maynards and Bayview when the weather is good. As a result, Jake O'Connor and the boats aren't competing for a scarcity of parking spots like we thought they would be.
Next subject:
Financial Reality for the City of Excelsior as it relates to parking. The primary revenue source for all cities in Minnesota is the property tax. Most folks beleive that the business properties contribute a whole lot of taxes to the cities, and since Excelsior has lots of business properties, it receives a lot of taxes from them. This belief does not bear up under examination. Lets see why.
Excelsior has a history of being the downtown of the South Lake. As such, while our currently surrounding Cities, especially Shorweood, were largely undeveloped rural properties, Excelsior was relative rich in many ways, especially tax base. Excelsior provided most all of the infrastructure, principally Police, Fire, Recreation, Downtown, Parks, Cemetery, etc. for all of the South Lake. With its much higher concentration of Businesses than surrounding Cities, it had the tax base, the identity and the generosity and willingness to share with our neighbors what it had.
These public uses, such as the Commons, the Cemetery, the Elementary School, the Churches, and the City owned and operated parking lots in downtown, and the like mean that 1/2 of the land in Excelsior is tax free. While that has been so for the most of modern Excelsior history, there have been some compensating income, reocgnizing the services Excelsior provides for our surrounding cities. That state aid has almost gone away.
That situation of Excelsior being the center of wealth of the South Lake Minnetonka has reversed in the past couple of decades. It seems important to get a basic understanding of the finances of the City of Excelsior and what has happened to them in the last decade in order to understand the parking financing issue.
First, there are both cost and revenue issues that have each moved a lot (each has moved in the direction to make Excelsior's financial picuture less favorable) in the last few years. To put iit in perspective, the general government budget for Excelsior is about $1.5 million. On the cost side, the largest cost of the City is our Police - without rehashing all the issues on this subject, just be aware that the total annual cost of police service to Excelsior has gone up well over $200,000 (from $361,000 in 1998 to $544,000 in 2007) in the last decade. Other costs, as in other cities, have gone up also.
However, the revenue side has hit Excelsior much harder. The state and county had recognized the role that Excelsior played in providing a central city services for the South Lake Minnetonka area, and provided, through programs such as Local Government Aid had provided 25% of Excelsior City revenue. Due to the state budget concerns, most of that money has gone away. Specifically that amount has gone down $200,000 (from $$326,000 in 1998 to $128,000 in 2007 in the last decade.
Those two actions alone have left an annual $400,000 hole to be made up in Excelsior budget. However, more directly to the point relative to parking, the State changed the manner in which commercial properties were taxed in 2004. This it technical, so stay with me here. The state lowered the "tax capacity" of commercial buidlings by 1/2 in that year. They also took school funding off the local property tax rolls and determined to finance schools from the state budget. In order to pay for that move, the state began to collect state taxes on commercial real estate, for the first time ever. So the bottom line is that commercial property has gone from a driver of Excelsior City revenue to at best, a break even proposition.
Even though commercial properties continue to pay larger amounts of taxes, relative to residential properties of similar value, the City portion of those taxes has significantly decreased, and the County and State portion has increased. For example, a commercial building in Excelsior worth $1 million (there are only a handful at that value or higher) will pay about $30,000 in total taxes, but the Excelsior portion of those taxes is only about $4,000 of the $30,000 total taxes paid. The rest go to the State, County, School and special districts. If that $1 million piece of property is newly developed, it will need about 15 parking spaces, unless it is a restaurant, in which case it will need about 25 to 30 parking spaces. If parking spaces cost $20,000 each (and that is the lowest cost per space in any of the studies Excelsior has done), then the total tax revenue to Excelsior from that property will only pay for providing 1 parking space every 5 years. ($20,000 per space divided by $4,000 per year tax revenue = 5 years). That leaves nothing for maintenance of that parking, or for any other city services provided to that newly developed commercial property. At that rate, Excelsior would use every dollar of taxes generated for the next 75 years (or over 100 years for a restaurant) just to build the parking to accomodate the new development. That disregards the cost to maintain and replace that parking space, as well as any other cost to the city from that business.
From these illustrations of a complex subject, I hope that you can see that the City cannot cover the cost of building new parking from its tax revenues. The City is strained to meet its operating costs from the current revenue. The City taxes have almost doubled in the past decade (from $647,000 in 1998 to $1,011,000 in 2007)to deal with the $400,000 hole described above. The Excelsior revenues to pay for more parking simply do not exist.
What about the developer paying?
Again, the numbers do not add up. To build the required spaces at $20,000 per space would add at $300,000 to $500,000 to the cost of $1 million project. The only way for a developer make any money is to rent the building to a business. The rent paid by the business operator must be enough money to pay back all the cost to build the building. When one increases the cost of the building by 30% to 60% to pay for the parking, then the rent cost is too high for a business owner to afford while still keeping a viable business. As it is, only certain businesses can afford to be in downtown Excelsior because the property costs have really gone up in the last decade. That is the reason we no longer have such ordinary staples as a hardware store, drug store, grocery store, bakery and such. The operating margins of those types of businesses is too low to afford the Excelsior rental rates now. Just think about how much higher the rents would have to be to pay for the costs of parking.
So, what is the answer to how to pay for increased parking? If we are to afford to expand parking, it is most likely that some combination of all/some/each of them (businesses pay, tax levy, some other government assistance, charge for parking, etc.) will need to be made. what are your thoughts?
In response to the previous two posts by Anonymous, you are very observant. Your thoughts about being pleased that the new restaurants did not bring the parking situation to a critical point this summer, as well as your idea that we are very close to a critical point in our parking are shared by the members of the Parking Task Force. I beleive most of the other City leaders also share those thoughts.
Thanks for your response. It does make it worthwhile to know that some folks are reading and posting here.
Last subject, and then I am off to bed.
Charter Boats.
There is a big difference in the revenue to the City from Charter Boats than from real estate. In my prior post, I pointed out that very little of the tax revenue generated by commercial properties come to the City of Excelsior. About $4,000 out of every $30,000 of taxes (which is the amount of taxes paid by a $1 million commercial property) comes to Excelsior.
However, the Rentals and Fees charged to the Charter Boats for using the city docks comes totally to the City. The Commercial Charter Boats, in total, pay the City between $80,000 and $100,000 for dock use (for those calling on the City docks, but not docked there), dock rental, parking expansion charges, etc. For the City of Excelsior to receive an equivalent amount of revenue from commercial buildings would require $20 to $30 million of commercial building value. To put that into perspective, the Chrysler Dealship, from the State Tax rolls, is valued at about $2 million, so we would need about 10 to 15 such properties to bring to the City the amount of revenue from the Charter Boats. Maynards is valued at about $3.3 million, so we would need about 6 to 8 such properties to bring to the City the amount of revenue from the Charter Boats.
The Charter Boats also drive a demand for parking. They must be considered in the mix. However, the point in this post is to try and point out the amount of revenue they bring directly to the City. I do not know how much revenue they bring to the other businesses in Excelsior. And, there are clearly costs associated with the Charter Boats, such as building and maintaining the docks, dock patrol, and the like. So all their revenue to the City is not without costs.
Steve the info you passed along to this site was very informative and I greatly appreciate your effort to get this site back on track. Sounds to me like we should be looking to add more charter boats to the mix if at all possible.
Whether we need parking or not in this city, it doesn't seem like anything ever gets resolved. If we cannot expand anything downtown without additional parking then nothing will expand because lord knows the council will still be talking about long-term parking needs in 20 years.
Why are we thinking about spending money on parking? The side streets are free to park on and there are very few no parking signs on these side streets. The only time the side streets are full is the 4th of July. Why would we pay 20k per spot when there are free spots to be used all over town?
Why do we have to pay to create parking spots? Because rich fat cats are too lazy to walk. We are an obese society full of me-first types. These are the same slobs who drive around a mall parking lot for 20 minutes and back up a line of traffic for 5 minutes just to make sure they get a close spot to the entrance.
This world has gone to hell because everybody wants to take the easy way out wherever they go. Fat asses want to park near the door. Why do you think suburban malls with their big lots are such an attraction and downtown Minneapolis struggles to keep hold of its retail and restaurant businesses? Because its much easier to go to a mall and sit your fat ass in a motorized chair than it is to hoof it through downtown. That and the fact hoodlums are everywhere downtown. (We're lucky there's not a direct busline between downtown Minneapolis and Excelsior.)
If we really wanted to get people to shop and invest in our town we should build those moving walkways on our hideous looking sidewalks after we expand parking. Let's cater to fattest of the fat!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Fat fat fat fat fat! You are all fat and should burn in hell!
Yes, they will all burn when they come home.
There are many in Excelsior who will burn in hell when their day of reckoning comes!
The country has a wieght issue not just Excelsior. But what does obesity have to do with discussing parking in Excelsior? Some in Excelsior may be heavy but at least they can read. This site is for parking discussion nothing else.
Who made your fat ass the keeper of the crypt? The fatness of Excelsior, and the rest of the world, is an issue when it comes to parking. Fat asses don't want to walk, so if you want to make your downtown vibrant, you have to make it easy for fatties like yourself to get to the storefronts. You Excelsior fat cats are so disgusting!
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Is there a way to trace back to find an original sender in this blog? i think it would be of intrest to the people of Excelsior to know who the perfectly fit and intelligent person is that is sending such offensive comments to a parking blog.
Nope, there's not. Blogger doesn't tell you where anonymous comments come from. And whether it comes from you, me or our neighbor, does it really make a difference? No, it doesn't.
Why don't you people that are so interested in knowing what the progress is on parking expansion go to a council meeting and ask? Call the mayor. My God, how did you function 10 years ago without the internet? Be a little proactive, Christ!
There are a lot of problems in this country, and none bigger than how Excelsior can park more calls. It's so important that people flock to an abandoned blog to find out if there are any developments in this vital issue.
You people make me sick.
It's good to see that some of the excess baggage has been removed. It looks like more needs to be done, but it's a start.
Now I can feel good about coming here and begging for more information about parking instead of being proactive and asking city councilmen directly.
I sure like the idea of a developer paying for us to gain some more parking spaces. Let's hope we can get the pavillion and hotel up and moving forward. MAybe we have the pavillion developer pay to keep up an ice rink on the lake during the winter.
I agree free parking garage sounds great. I hope they can get these developers to work together and make the hotel and the pavillion look somwhat similar kind of like Wayzata has done with the building by the lake.
How is it a free parking garage when the city is giving lakeshore land for development? I have heard nothing mentioned about the pavillion property being paid for, just that a garage would be built in exchange for development rites. Why not sell the pavillion property and let the city spend the money on a ramp. Who would benefit from this "free" ramp the city would receive? The pavillion developer, that's who. What a scam!
This is hardly a freebie. That lakefront land is a city asset. Are we OK giving away an asset forever? The developer may be well-intentioned, but what about the flipper who buys it in 10 years or the speculator who buys it from that guy in 15 years?
Wow I would never anticipate our city council giving away free land. Are they that naive? I guess the people of Excelsior that elected the council are just as dumb. I say the city should do a 25, 50, 100 year lease on the land so there is a continous revenue stream into the city. The lease rate should be evaluated every 5, 10, 15,20 years and there should be a set adjustable rate increase that is allowed at each step along the way. If the devloper thinks the rate increase is to high then the pavillion that is on city land would be given back to the city. DOes that make any sense to anyone? THis way the city niether gives nor sells the land asset and maintains the right to the land????
that makes no sense at all!
I am all for any idea that keeps the land rights with the city! If that means leasing out the land on a long term basis I say do it!
I am a nearby resident & would really appreciate shuttle bus service for events like the Fourth of July. This was done a few years ago for the art fair. Why not for the Fourth? I would be willing to pay a few bucks to ride a shuttle from Minnetonka High School and avoid the hours long snarl after the fireworks. Thanks.
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